No
Holds Barred: Carroll was ranked in the top three welterweights in the world by Ring
magazine between 1935 and 1937; taking top spot in 1936. Was he ever close to
being granted a world title shot?
Paul Cupitt: Yeah, Carroll was the number one
contender behind [Barney] Ross. The Ross-Carroll fight was actually scheduled
for December 1936. Ross agreed to come to Australia, but he wanted his purse
deposited in a bank by October or he wouldn’t come to Australia. I think the
purse agreed on worked out to be about ten- or twelve-years wages back then; a
crazy amount of money! It ended up being a catch-22 that robbed Carroll of his
title shot. The promoter was Charles Lucas; he needed to pre-sell tickets to
raise the money to get Ross to Australia, but it was still the middle of the
Depression, people didn’t have the money to spend on tickets for a fight that
was months away and where one of the guys wasn’t even in Australia. Had Ross
come, they were expecting over sixty thousand people to attend the fight, but
he wouldn’t leave until those people had paid their money. So, there was no
chance of ever getting Ross to Australia with his demands - which were fair
demands at the time considering he was making good money in America fighting
guys like Jimmy McLarnin, Izzy Jannazzo, and Ceferino Garcia. So, there was no
need for him to come to Australia, but it was the same for Carroll; there was
no need for him to go to America because he was making a year’s wages every
time he lined up one of the major stadiums.
No
Holds Barred: But, presumably it would have made sense for Carroll to travel to
the USA if a world title shot was guaranteed?
 |
| Barney Ross Owner: Cyberzone |
Paul Cupitt: Well, there were talks of him
going to America at certain times. But, Carroll basically said that if Ross was
going to make the demand of money to be paid upfront, then he would do the same
with American promoters who wanted to take him over there. Carroll was very
loyal to his promoters, and his whole thing was to make money for his family.
He was already making that much money fighting in Australia. The other thing is
that there were all these horror stories about Australian boxers fighting in
America at the time. I mean the story about Les Darcy is pretty well-known -
about him dying in America - and then there was Billy Grime who was a
world-rated boxer in the 1920s; he went to America and there were all these
rumours - I don’t really know how true they are - about him being drugged
before his fights and having his money stolen and stuff. There was a lot of
xenophobia towards Australians going to America at the time.
No
Holds Barred: Other Australians fought in the USA, and other Americans fought
in Australia, so were those money demands common for other big names at the
time too?
Paul Cupitt: The really big-name fighters
could demand their travel expenses to come to Australia, then they’d be like
any other fighter: 25% of the gate was the purse for a main-event fighter at
the time. Ross was a reigning world champion, and I think the only other
reigning world champion who fought in Australia at that time was Tommy Burns, and
he made similar demands to fight Jack Johnson. So, it was outlandish for a
big-name fighter to make those demands, but not so much for a world champion.
No
Holds Barred: In his last five fights, he beat talented Americans Jimmy Leto
three times and Izzy Jannazzo. The latter had lost a decision to world
welterweight champion Barney Ross a year earlier. News of these victories must
have made its way back to the USA. Were there further calls for Carroll to be
issued a world title shot late in his career?
Paul Cupitt: Yeah, there were. When he beat
Jannazzo and Leto in his last few fights, Ceferino Garcia was on his way out to
Australia, and he was going to fight him too. But, Carroll’s doctor told him to
retire because he couldn’t make weight for his last two fights with Leto; his
doctor basically told him that if he didn’t retire he was going to have a
nervous breakdown. The plan was to fight Garcia and to use that to try again to
lure Ross to Australia and hopefully get a better deal. So, yeah there were
definitely renewed calls to get Carroll a title shot. There’s another story
which is quite well-known with boxing fans in Australia, but I couldn’t verify
it, so I left it out of the book: Maxie Rosenbloom was fighting in Australia, in
1936 I think, and he supposedly saw Carroll either in the gym or at one of his
fights. With Rosenbloom and Ross both being Jewish they knew each other quite
well, and apparently he told Ross that if Ross went to Australia he would lose
his title, so told him to stay in America. It’s an interesting story but one I
couldn’t verify.
No
Holds Barred: WOW! So, do you know what other American boxing insiders thought
of Carroll at the time?
Paul Cupitt: Well, Nat Fleischer - the founder
of Ring Magazine - saw Carroll and was a big fan of his. He actually thought
Carroll would beat Ross; I don’t know if he saw him in the ring or if he saw
him on tapes - I think it was probably tapes - but, he was under the impression
that Carroll would’ve beaten Ross had they fought. A lot of the American
trainers who saw Carroll fight were impressed. Guys like Jimmy Leto, Willard
Brown and Wesley Ramey all thought very highly of him. Van Klaveren wasn’t a
huge fan of his after their first fight; they fought during a rainstorm in an
open-air stadium, and he blamed the rain for the loss. But Carroll said
something like, “He couldn’t have realised that I was fighting in the same
rainstorm as him”. They fought a rematch in the same open-air stadium six weeks
later in fine weather, and Carroll beat him even easier; van Klaveren’s opinion
of him changed after that. All the Americans who fought him thought he was a
fantastic fighter; they just couldn’t believe the pace he could keep up for the
distance.
No
Holds Barred: You mentioned Rosenbloom and Fleischer’s opinions of Carroll’s
in-ring ability. In your opinion, would Carroll have had a good chance of
victory over the great American Barney Ross?
Paul Cupitt: Well, I think it would have been
a horrible style match-up for Ross. Two of Ross’ main attributes were his
conditioning and his jab; Carroll had an equally good jab and was in equally
good condition, but he was much larger. Ross came up from lightweight and was
probably better in the light-welterweight division. Ross would essentially be
fighting a larger - although more unpolished - version of himself. Only the
real hardcore historians who aren’t Australian know about him overseas, but
those who know about him or have seen him fight rated him very highly. Like I
said, Nat Fleischer also wrote that Carroll would have beaten Ross.
No
Holds Barred: Who did he consider his toughest opponent?
 |
| Carroll-van Klaveren Owner: Owner: National Library of Australia |
Paul Cupitt: I remember reading a newspaper
interview with him towards the end of his career, and him rating van Klaveren as
his toughest opponent. Leto was also one of his better wins. It shows the
calibre of Carroll, because a couple of years after his three losses to
Carroll, Leto beat Charley Burley. Van Klaveren is very underrated, and guys
like Jack Portney and Willard Brown were both good fighters. Brown fought Bobby
Wilson in Australia before Carroll fought both of them; if you read the
newspaper reports of the fight, it sounds like there was a crazy beginning to
it: Brown just absolutely beat the hell out of Wilson for the first two and a
half minutes. Then Wilson - who was a very underrated puncher and somebody not
many people have heard of - knocked Brown down with about thirty seconds left
of the first round, then knocked him down cold with about five seconds
remaining of the round. His corner managed to wake him up in-between rounds and
sent him out for the second round. Wilson got another two knockdowns in the
second round, then Brown woke up half way through the round and came back into
the fight and ended up beating Wilson for the rest of the fifteen rounds to win
on points.
No
Holds Barred: Which of his wins was he most proud of?
Paul Cupitt: I think the van Klaveren fights
were probably the ones he was most proud of. The win over Richards was one of
those wins that didn’t mean as much at the time, but when you see what Richards
achieved later in his career, it became a bigger win. Richards was ranked in
the top three at both middleweight and light-heavyweight by Ring Magazine at
one point.
No
Holds Barred: Why did he never fight outside of Australia and was he ever given
any opportunities to do so?
Paul Cupitt: He did fight briefly in New
Zealand early in his career; the voyage actually put him off ever wanting to
travel again. He suffered really badly from sea sickness, so he never felt he
was at his best outside of Australia. His daughter was telling me stories of
how they had a holiday home on the beach in Melbourne after his career ended,
and his mates would take him out fishing; he’d always want to go out fishing
even though he’d always get sea sickness and end up throwing up over the side
of the boat. Then, his mates would all get upset with him because they’d end up
having to go back early. So, the sea sickness was the big thing that kept him
in Australia. He had offers to go to America but, like I said, there were all
those horror stories about how Australian boxers were treated over there; like
Les Darcy and Billy Grime. The main thing was he didn’t want to risk his future
earning potential for his family when he was making large sums of money
fighting in Australia during the depression.
No
Holds Barred: I suppose it was also such a long distance.
Paul Cupitt: It was a five-day boat trip to
New Zealand, and I think it was about three weeks to America at that time. He
reckoned he lost six kilograms from throwing up; apparently, they hit quite bad
weather during the trip. He lost his first fight off the boat to a guy called
Harry Casey who he then beat twice rather easily; he blamed that loss on the
voyage. The first fight was in Wellington in the North Island, and the second
fight was in Christchurch in the South Island, so he had another boat trip in-between
the fights; he said the only thing that saved him in the second fight is that
he managed to fall asleep before the boat departed.
No
Holds Barred: Considering he never contested or captured a world title, despite
his high ranking towards the end of his career, do you know if he had any
regrets?
Paul Cupitt: From speaking with his daughter
and grandchildren, I don’t think he did. Before he retired, he paid cash for a
brand-new house, brand-new car, and they had savings in the bank when he
retired. This was during the great depression. Boxing set him up for life, so I
don’t think he had any regrets about not fighting anyone.
No
Holds Barred: Considering the dangers in boxing, such as injuries, bad
decisions etc., would you say that ultimately his decision to not fight in
America was vindicated by the fact he retired having provided long-term for his
family?
Paul Cupitt: Yeah. When they were talking to
him about going to America to fight Ross after the fight in Australia fell
through, he just said out loud that he didn’t want to risk putting his family’s
financial situation in jeopardy. He had bad hand problems and was quite
injury-prone throughout his career, so I think there was a good chance of
something bad happening if he’d gone to America; like if he’d gone to America
for six months and didn’t fight, and the family have no money coming in, then
he’s sort of put them in a bad position when he could have just stayed in
Australia and earned money. He had a full-time job working in a slaughterhouse
too; he actually started working there after his last loss to Henneberry, and
he reckoned it helped his hand injuries because he was ripping skin off of carcasses,
so he reckoned it strengthened muscles in his hands.
No
Holds Barred: Why did he decide to retire when he did? Was it because of the
injuries?
Paul Cupitt: Yeah, it was doctor’s orders. He
couldn’t make the welterweight limit anymore and his doctor was worried he was
going to have a nervous breakdown if he kept at it. So, with the financial
position he was in, he just didn’t want to put his health at risk.
No
Holds Barred: What did he do after his boxing career ended?
Paul Cupitt: He went back to work in the slaughterhouse,
he took over Bill O’Brien’s gym after he died, and he was also a referee; he
was the main referee at West Melbourne Stadium. His daughter told me he was an
avid gardener; he liked working in the garden and listening to the footy on the
radio. He was just a very quiet, humble sort of guy.
No
Holds Barred: So, aside from the refereeing he didn’t really keep up his
profile in boxing?
Paul Cupitt: Well, he trained guys; I wouldn’t
say he wasn’t a good trainer, he just didn’t have any star fighters. If you
read through the newspapers in the 1940s/50s there’s a lot more talk a bout
Ambrose Palmer’s fighters than Jack Carroll’s fighters. So, he was sort of more
famous as a referee. He didn’t like the limelight when he was a headlining
fighter himself, so he just sort of kept to himself.
No
Holds Barred: He was inducted into the Australian Hall of Fame in 2003. Is he remembered
well in Australia today?
 |
| Jack Caroll: and the rise of Australian Boxing |
Paul Cupitt: Well, when Ron Richards died a
lot of people from the boxing world attended, but when Carroll died there was
very little mention in the newspapers because he’d just sort of disappeared off
the radar. So, unfortunately he isn’t as well remembered as he should be, which
is one of the reasons I focused the book on him. A lot of the older generation
remember him, but Australians have had a number of world champions since: Jimmy
Carruthers, Lionel Rose, Johnny Famechon, Kostya Tszyu, and Jeff Fenech, for
example; so, we’ve had quite a few guys. Even though being ranked in the top
five in the 1930s was harder than winning a world title today, a lot of people
just look at him and don’t really rate him because he never won a world title,
which I think is more of a misunderstanding of the era than anything else. But,
he was consistently our biggest drawcard in Australian boxing history; if you
look at the top ten highest attendances, I think he’s in there four or five
times. His fight with Jannazzo I think held the record for the largest
attendance right up until Fenech versus Azumah Nelson, and that fight was in
1937.
No
Holds Barred: Did people attend those fights from all over or were they mostly
locals?
Paul Cupitt: It was more of a local thing I
think. The stadium was right in the busiest part of Sydney at the time, so
people would just get the train out there to watch the fights. It was just
something everyone did on a Monday night; a lot of the fights in Australia at
the time were on Mondays.
No
Holds Barred: Yeah, back in the day lots of venues held boxing shows on pretty
much any day of the week, especially in the UK and USA.
Paul Cupitt: In Australia, you’d have shows in
Sydney Stadium on Monday night, Wednesday night there’d be shows at Leichhardt
and Melbourne, Friday night there was a big show in Brisbane, then there was a
bigger show on Saturday night in Melbourne. Then you had all the smaller shows
like Newtown, Newcastle, and in smaller suburbs in Victoria like Bendigo. So,
there were fights every night of the week in Australia at the time.
No
Holds Barred: With the size of Australia and lack of modern transportation, did
it not put fans off of going to many events?
Paul Cupitt: With the more run-of-the-mill
shows like most of Carroll’s fights before he fought all the world-rated guys,
they were attended more by locals. But, with the really big shows - like the
third Henneberry-Palmer fight - hotels were booked out weeks in advance before
the fight.
No
Holds Barred: You mentioned you met his family. What do they think of the book?
 |
| Jack Carroll: and the rise of Australian Boxing |
No
Holds Barred: Finally, how can fans buy your book?
Paul Cupitt: Australians can order it from
their local bookstore. It’s also available online: you can order it from
Amazon, Book Depository, Wordery, and some other online stores.
No
Holds Barred: It’s been a pleasure talking to you about a fascinating period in
Australian boxing.
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